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One Sky is a custom text based roleplay site, set in a world beyond our own. Technologically modern, though taking place in a more ancient to medieval setting - you join the world as a mortal. The site is player driven as well as plot driven, with the backstory being only a basis for your character to get involved in this new world, known as Aleha.
Below is a list of important links that all members should read. The title of the linked topic is posted, with the date the topic was last updated. Ammends to the structure of this site occur quite often, so be sure to frequently check for updates. ♥
» The Storyline - 05/11/10 «
» The Map - 06/15/10 «
» The Rules - 11/04/10 «
» The System - 11/04/10 «
» The Availability - 11/04/10 «
» The Multiples - 11/04/10 «


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Takuma
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PostSubject: Feedback   Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:24 am

I see that this site has been in-making for more than eight months, from concept to coding to now. I've been on this site for a little less than a month, but I feel I've read enough and test the waters to the extent that I know what is good about this site and what needs improvement.

While some of this might seem like flaming to some, I promise that's not the intention. If I was so unhappy, I'd have simply up and disappeared on the site like so many others.

First thing that actually attracted me to One Sky is that it's a big world and it appeared quite a bit of effort had been put into it. A map, many cities and areas with descriptions to them, and a system with which to reward players for participating in threads. I'm biased in my preferrence to Fantasy settings, but not many people can pull an entire world out of their heads.

However, the site is woefully lacking in lore. There is a single "Story" thread, but no timeline, even a simple one, to line things up and show just how old the world is. Were humans, elves, etc. tossed down on the big chunk of rock by some old gods? Was it many thousands of years of evolution? Did nobody have the inkling of a thought to scratch down their thoughts on cavewalls, parchments, or the like to affirm their existence(make history)? Is there any inkling as to what each race believes? Aren't there different religions and interpretations among them? The story is a skeleton right now, it needs more details to really be able to flex some muscles and HOOK people into wanting to RP on the site.

TL;DR- Site needs more lore and exposition. As it is now, it's a wide-open world, but is lacking the immersion that small details provide.


Next up are specialties, which have conflicted me quite a bit more than I thought they would. Characters shouldn't be walking gods, whether freshly created or not. A person, no matter how old they get, are defined by what they place their time into. If a person is a blacksmith for 90% of their lives, a tailor for 8%, and a Chef for 2%, then their specialties would simply be Smithing and Tailoring. It becomes a bit harder to tell if it's 33% for each.

However, here's the friction, how long does it take to become an artisan in a given profession? When is it no longer about "What the character is best at" and more about "How long it takes to get good at something", Specialties involving crafts seem a bit pointless, especially for those wanting a character who has a bit of age to them. Even with Specialties like Smithing, it's not as if such a thing would benefit them in combat- which leads me to the next problem.

Some specialties are filler. They hold abilities that aren't exclusive and are easily covered by others. The most important distinction I feel that needs to be made between specialties is Combat and Non-combat. Sure, Joe Metalworker is a bang-up Smith, but that won't make him very good at cracking open some guy's skull with his blacksmith's hammer. So if he's 50 years old, and has had plenty of time to gain some knowledge of Archery and Elemental magic, why is he still restricted from knowing Smithing? Specialties shouldn't target professions if you're look for balance, it just kills creativity. Professions should be based upon the age of character and how it fits into history(someone living in the mountains their entire life typically wouldn't know squat about how to captain a ship). There's still problems in Combat specialties in the form of overlap. The "Art of Stealth" suffers from this the most, and when you get down to it, there's only three ways in which to look at Stealth:

Defensive Stealth- As in utter invisibility, quick running, lightning reflexes, and nimble dodging, agile movement
Offensive Stealth- Blending into crowds or shadows(no complete invisibility, there has to be some weakness to this since it's not defensive), sudden powerful attacks(Assassins, whether with poison, a knife, or a bow, the objective is to kill with precision with minimum collateral, this cannot be done if you allow every victim to get into a 10-minute-long sword fight with you). Knowledge of poisons and traps.
Perception Stealth- Awareness to sight, smell, sound. Knowing is half the battle, and if you don't have the perception to see your target or hear your foes in the darkness, you'll be a pretty lousy thief, rogue, assassin, whatever. Able to spot weaknesses more easily, since they're not likely to carry around big, hulking weapons.

This problem has happened to quite a few sites, and when it comes down to it, whenever you give a character stats, specialities, techniques, abilities- Whatever measuring stick you want to impose- it has to be observed critically. So many sites I see always go for this same formula. "Hi, welcome to the site. Write up a profile and then you can RP. But only after your character's abilities, strengths, and weaknesses are on par to that of a clumsy trainee. But don't worry, if you stick around long enough, you can be a walking god." And this IS the truth if it's allowed for one to purchase an unlimited amount of techniques that deal "Multi-limb-dismemberment-combo-attacks." I won't lie, if I invested that much time into a site, I definitely would think twice about leaving, but as for someone joining and looking at how long it would take for a post count to get that high... it's not very appealing. This is especially considering the limit of one or two threads per character AND how much of a royal pain it can be if said thread gets held up(I'm learning about that right now).

Not to mention, Narrow specialty/Stats systems also impose the same boring triangle, giving you the age old question- "So are you a Warrior, Rogue, or Mage?" Even the "Art of..." section gives credit to this, as all combat techniques are categorized into one thing. Playing the traditional mage, warrior, or rogue is fine but eventually it gets incredibly boring(about after the 50th Legolas passes by). And while all that's fine for some, think on this for a second: I once had a character that was a powerful mage, yet was also good with a sword. His magic would be restricted to absolutely ZERO harmful spells, but all defensive/restoration class abilities. And so if I tried to make that character here, that's one specialty slot down and for only half a spellbook. This site's template doesn't target those types of Offensive/Defensive specifics and/or take them into account.

TL;DR- Some specialties are lackluster due to overlap or generally pale in comparison to others. Some offer no combat benefits but are grouped under combat 'arts'. System really just needs more polish, like so many other stat systems, break out the charts, possible combinations, and start balancing or it's just going to be a pain for newcomers. Deters newbies from sticking with the site and with the current population and objectives in the site(Quests), this is a dire problem.


Now for the more touchy subject: Staff.

http://onesky.heavenforum.org/character-archives-f11/seeth-t303.htm#3831

Tested the waters with this character. I knew the combination of abilities was going to raise some issues, but this was to point out a few faults. Still, I did put quite a bit of effort into this, 4 or 5 pages worth, if only to show I wasn't just pissing about.

I hate to be throwing spotlight on Avarice for this, but he is the one who worked through the application. Reading it from top to bottom, I was disappointed with having no timeline and not having any chance to tie Seeth to anything other than a mercenary organization. This is incredibly bland, as mercenary work would be outside of the story, knocking off bland Mr. Random NPC target since the quests leading up to 'wars' weren't around yet(and there's no reason to suspect they'd be up anytime soon).

Then personality was claimed to be lacking. I was confused, as I'd picked apart and thought up every deranged problem this fool, Seeth, would have. I even went so far as to characterize the manifestations of his dementia. The only explanation would be that Avarice glanced over the profile, saw personality with a one-liner, and replied without actually reading any further. If there is another way this can be missed, I will retract this.

There was a lack of knowlege of the very rules on the site. Elves get two elements, and if you have a specialty involving a weapon, you get more than one of that weapon(or so I understood from what I read in information threads.) Avarice did not realize this at first.

After all of THAT, there was also the issue with the techniques: Windwalk, Shadowstep, and Last Gasp. Admittedly, Last Gasp was the skill that would completely screw up and get a mage killed, and it should be removed. Though I still played by the rules. Seeth was of the Dark element, has access to dark magic, and from what I've seen in techniques, Dark Magic is use to either damage, poison, or debuff(degrade) a target. Seeth was given the "Mageslayer" title for this very skill.

Assassination should have offered something in the way of stealth, but both Windwalk and Shadowstep were flagged. Shadowstep was another one that was a pretty ugly technique, but again, it's what an assassin does. They don't sit around and slowly jaunt towards a target, they play dirty. If a player puts their character in a thread with an assassin that is flagged for some brutal violence, then they've signed their own death warrant unless their character knows what their dealing with. The player has the choice there- Anyways, I don't force someone's character into a corner and slay them without the player's consent, it doesn't promote good roleplay. Both should have been a bit higher in technique level, but my focus was still on Shadowstep, as I personally felt Windwalk to be pretty weak(you can't sneak very well if you've got a breeze following you in any type of indoor complex) and didn't really care for it.

(Avarice, I don't mean to throw you under the bus with this, but in my opinion, this is not how to handle an application.)

So if I was a brand new member and had poured that much time into an application, only to stumble into so many problems(half of them unwarranted or outside of my control), why in the world would I stick around and RP on this site? Mistakes happen, but stuff like this would drive people off, even if they were just peeking through the denied/archived apps.

I won't pretend like I'm speaking from some throne of honesty. I'll admit I'm biased- I like open, fantasy worlds with plenty of freedom and room to dig in and immerse. I hate having my thread sitting on hold for very long without the person in question contacting me(Yes, I'm talking about Measure, another Staff member). I loathe most 'balancing' systems because most of them tend to flail about because, surprisingly, most balance systems are coming from Games like D&D. Those RPGS have a lot of rules and stats in place to keep a character balanced, if you don't go full-fledged with it then it's not going to be balanced, and if you do, then one may as well be playing an online RPG unless they REALLY like writing.

Take this information as you will. I tried to be as forthcoming as I could about it. This site isn't directly tailored for me(and it shouldn't be), BUT even by working by it's own rules, It would be possible for me to cut all but four of Seeth's techniques and have a character who could kill another without breaking a sweat. And this is a starting character(Shadowstep[assassin/dark] 4, Razorwind[swordsman, wind] 4, Lastgasp[assassin/dark] 3, Windwalk[assassin/wind] 3, total of 14 points spent with 4 techniques). So one should either start laying down some serious specialty/magic restrictions or just impose OOC restrictions, a very simple rule: Don't be a jerk and kill a player's character without consent.

I decided to post this in feedback, since that's what it is. Like I said at the beginning of my post, I'm not doing this out of some malicious intent. If I felt I was wasting my time I wouldn't have bothered to take the effort in posting this.

If you feel this post is too flammable(I know it has touchy subjects in it), feel free to delete/ban as you will, I'll get the message.
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Rodyn
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PostSubject: Re: Feedback   Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:57 am

Lol, nice. You said TL;DR twice.

I was actually going to leave it at that, but decided maybe I should throw in my two cents here.

Running a RP site isn't hard. Running a unique site is hard. I feel that's what everyone tries to do, when setting up an RP site. Thus, when trying to create anything original, be it story of RP system, one will always find that what they end up doing is repeating an old formula with a slight twist to it.

In regards to the story: Sure, it's a bit short. It's a story they wanted to develop with their Players, even if the past is lacking a bit. It leaves it open to the public - no big restrictions in the character you're making's past. I've felt the staff has been very lenient in this regard; albeit, some characters may just have incredulously long histories that they may just skim over instead of reading, I do get a sense that they read enough to see whether or not a character is practical or not.

As for the comments on specialties, in truth, I have no idea what was trying to be said. I've re-read this post fully three times; a powerful mage that was good with a sword was talked about. The mage had 0 offensive spells, was all defensive/restoration. Uh, White Magic and Swordsmanship? I'd also like to add that we're not restricted to the specialties listed only in the Arts and Specialties thread. Those are more along the lines of a sort of guide we can follow, but I suppose it can be confusing, as all characters just pulled their specialties right out of that thread. I may be wrong about this, but that's what I understood when I read the topic's description.

Also, I think it's flat out wrong to try and compare the specialties to a stat system. Possibly not the intention, but it is mentioned in the post. Obviously, some specialty combination seem to be more 'powerful' that others, and some might seem flat out dumb. The object here isn't to create a character that's even good at anything at all; it's to create a character, and just have an example of what they're good at. Granted, we are limited to only two, and that might seem a very small amount. I would wholly agree with you on that point; no person ever is only good at only two things in life. But people generally only focus on one aspect of their lives; i.e., their jobs. I believe that's what specialties are trying to get at here.

I'm not going to touch on the 'staff', as I feel it's more of a problem with character creation more than anything else. Honestly, you're right. Character creation is most definitely limited for us. You're spot on with the point that older characters should be more skilled than younger ones, or someone trained in a certain field should be more crafty in the way they deal with things. This is a problem with many RP sites - especially ones that lack a 'stat' system. Levels, attributes, job levels, etc. It's wrong to assume that, when given fewer restrictions, everyone is going to create a god-like character. Rather, RP is based on creating a character that's fictional - a character who you want to immerse yourself in for a time. Someone who is fun for you, the mun.

This is something that's become a sort of default in RPing these days. And what I have to say for this site, though - I don't see it in play here. The only problem the staff ever sees with a combat skill is if it's not detailed enough, or if it doesn't make sense with your specialties. Limited? Not at all. Just them trying to make sense of why a character can perform this feat - they've never given any problems to anyone who can make a logical explanation for a skill.

I'm going to have to agree with Avarice's point on the 'Shadowstep' skill. Stepping through shadows? Definitely not a level 1 technique - it's clearly stated that level 1 techniques can have nothing to do with an element. In case you never ran across the post (I have to admit, it's kind of hard to find some things), it's within this page.

The point made about weapons is quite valid - it is stated that one needs a specialty in order to use a 'special' weapon. If this means one can only have a weapon if they choose a specialty, I'm in agreement with you; that's dumb. Sorry to be blunt, but that's my honest opinion. And if someone chooses a specialty with a weapon, and is restricted to only one; why are they being restricted? In that regard, it seems to make more sense to get the most out of your specialties, and give them two other specialties and some sort of weapon that they just hang around with.

The only complain I'd have to add is that, when creating a character, it seems all the limits are listed. Yet there are people who try to create a character, people who read and re-read the limits, yet problems are still found in their character. I'm going to throw out my own character here, Malik the Dark Elf. There were obvious flaws in the original design - granted, I'm sure I was given the benefit of the doubt when my character was first created, and the problems just came up later. Totally understandable. In fact, even the initial faults I agreed with - complicated First Aid kits, and techniques that were not described/had fault within the system. Then another restriction came up - the amount of items. There's nothing on the site that lists there's a limit to the amount of items one can carry on their person - there wasn't even anything overboard, in my opinion. But apparently, it was lenient to leave my character with a minimum of two items. I did agree to this stipulation, however, it leaves my character with a sort of bad taste in my mouth.

In addition to my friend not wanting to create a character on the site, it makes me want to just scrap the idea and start anew, which I was actually holding back being part of the RP you started up, Takuma. The only point I'm trying to make here is, if there's an item limit, just put it in the rules. I found it very annoying to have to suddenly get rid of items that were detrimental to my character's core because of a rule I've never seen. If the argument is going to be made that my character had too many weapons - not items - I'm going to respectfully disagree right now. It was stated several times in the profile how each item was used, and only one item - the weapon he currently has - is used as a weapon.

All in all, however, I believe Takuma brought up some interesting points, and we can all benefit from his criticisms. While this RP site certainly isn't tailored to something he is used to, perhaps the staff can draw from a point or two he made to possibly improve the site. I'm going to say right now that I don't believe Takuma is right or wrong with anything he said, and everything I've said is merely my own opinion. It was nice to see someone take their time to list their opinions, and it even gave me encouragement to throw out my own as well.


Last edited by Rodyn on Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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Takuma
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PostSubject: Re: Feedback   Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:43 am

Rodyn wrote:
Lol, nice. You said TL;DR twice.

Heh, I felt bad for posting up this big wall of text without some ability to skim and sum up my thoughts.

I am a wordy bastard.
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Rodyn
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PostSubject: Re: Feedback   Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:59 am

Man, I went and edited my post because of that, too. I felt bad just throwing out a one liner that had almost nothing to do with the thread. Guess I felt it needed some sort of comedy, or something.
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Avarice.
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PostSubject: Re: Feedback   Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:59 am

I am disappoint.

The Story is small because we want the people who come to this site to make the story. What fun is it for a person to come onto a site and then have everything handed to them? We're giving you the freedom of being allowed to expand on whatever we provide you. If you haven't noticed we don't put limitations on what you want to add. Did i say, "REVANTS? THATS NOT INCLUDED? NO REVENANTS" No, i said yeah thats fine. I'm letting you use your creative talents and expand on what small story we have. If you really think the "Story" is a problem, then your sadly mistaken. The Staff has put probably the most effort into the story to make sure its free and able to be changed easily. YOU, have the power to create the story, thats what RPing is about amiright?

As for specialties, everyone has to be limited. We can't just have everyone walking around swinging swords and throwing fireballs at equal strength. You don't get to be "the best" at everything in life as Rodyn stated. You have to put some time into each thing. We also allow for the creation of YOUR OWN specialties. If you have an idea for a specialty. Put it in the proper location. There is a template in the Technique section. This has been stated clearly.

As for how you "Improve" your skills into a artistan in a profession. This is being worked out, Quests, how many quests you preform. Determine how "good" you are at any given subject. Quests have just been implemented, and this site is still on its baby feet. You're going to have to roll with the punches for a little while until everything is as perfect as it can be. If you 'can't deal with that' then i'm sorry. Not everything in life is going to be handed to you on a silver platter.

On a side note, I am also displeased with Measure, who is not a staff member, he is a player helper. He has no moderation powers he simply helps people who are new. Read the "Polaris" thread. Explains what exactly Polaris is, not staff. Sometimes people have obligations that puts them out for a few days. Its thanksgiving week. Please. Give the man a break though.

Like i said. You have the power to create the story with your Character "Seeth" there is no war currently. You could start one though. I never said you couldn't.

Your Personality was lacking because you had a single quote. And then separated it into sections Most people only do this section stuff to change the subject. If you wanted to say "This is part of the Personality too" this wouldn't have been a problem at all. Which i clearly said, "Its fine i simply didn't know they were also part of your personality" so please. don't be the 'jerk' here because i already told you the personality was fine.

Quote :
There was a lack of knowlege of the very rules on the site. Elves get two elements, and if you have a specialty involving a weapon, you get more than one of that weapon(or so I understood from what I read in information threads.) Avarice did not realize this at first.
There was miscommunication between the staff for the time. I don't know every rule by heart. There are a lot. You're going to have to deal with minor setbacks.

Rules changed. If there was a problem. They were editted. Go look at the rules now, I guarantee you they are different from when you started. I dont know if any of you were here at the time, but at first we had no "level system" for techniques. Everyone had to go back through their profiles and change it to work with the new system. Like i have already said before. Sites on its baby feet, roll with the punches. When you start you are "A weak piece of poop with no understanding of the world" Quote myself. You want to have an arsenal of weapons and be a proficent killer to start? Too bad. sorry, but you can't just have everything at the start. You have to work for your skill. We have to reward people for staying here for so long and give them an incentive to stay for a while. For most people i have to disagree. Most people want something to work for.

Instead of complaining about my lack of knowledge on your character. Perhaps you should have explained that more in depthly. I would have believed you if you said "I won't kill a players character without their consent" etc etc. I have to look out for everyones character not just yours. You aren't the most important person on the site so i'm not going to treat you differently unless you give me a reason to. I treat everyone the same. You're not a god when you start off, no one is. If you don't like not being the most powerful assassin in the world to start. Too bad, this isn't the site for you. This is a site based on the "rewards system" where your rewarded for doing well and are able to change things as you go.

I'm not going to delete this thread or ban you. I'm not that type of person. However you could have saved yourself a lot of trouble by simply asking me personally about your problems with your character. We could have 'worked it out.' You don't get to have everything you want in life as you please, period. Face the facts. Your going to have to give up somethings. I'm sorry your character can't be "EXACTLY as you want it. My character isn't "exactly" how i want him either. But i'm working towards making him where i want him to be.

It isn't hard to get approved on this site. We make it so you can be approved. We want you to be approved. But We have to break you down, make you new, change you around to get there.

If you have any more problems. Feel free to PM me. FA has enough on her mind to have to put up with this.

-~Avarice
Game Master

. . .


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Takuma
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PostSubject: Re: Feedback   Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:56 pm

Avarice. wrote:
I am disappoint.

The Story is small because we want the people who come to this site to make the story.

I'll try and answer each segment individually, when I feel there as a point that needs to be addressed. In regards to this quote, how can one make the story? I know of the idea of affecting the world- Start up a guild, get a bunch of friends, try to burn down a few towns. But what about that past I was asking about? Do I make that myself as well? And certainly it couldn't be made into anything I wanted.

Avarice. wrote:
What fun is it for a person to come onto a site and then have everything handed to them? We're giving you the freedom of being allowed to expand on whatever we provide you. If you haven't noticed we don't put limitations on what you want to add. Did i say, "REVANTS? THATS NOT INCLUDED? NO REVENANTS" No, i said yeah thats fine. I'm letting you use your creative talents and expand on what small story we have.

But you are. Go back and read Seeth's thread. The Shadowstep technique, if it were placed at level 4, it would be plausible for such a spell to exist in the world. But the reason it was rejected, not because of it's current level, but because it was simply too strong in it's combination with other spells. Revenants are the same thing as spectres, spirits, really any ghostly apparition- fairly standard for a fantasy setting. And my creative talents didn't count for much when those same revenants weren't allowed for me to control in that single, secluded environment.

Avarice. wrote:
If you really think the "Story" is a problem, then your sadly mistaken.

Instead of just telling me the story is fine, and I'm wrong, then address the very points I made in my post.

Avarice. wrote:
The Staff has put probably the most effort into the story to make sure its free and able to be changed easily. YOU, have the power to create the story, thats what RPing is about amiright?

Rping is about the characters, not the world-building. At the end of the day, the world can change from fantasy, to apocalyptic, to modern, and in every phase, it would still be about the players' characters and how they adapt and react to changes.

Avarice. wrote:
As for specialties, everyone has to be limited. We can't just have everyone walking around swinging swords and throwing fireballs at equal strength. You don't get to be "the best" at everything in life as Rodyn stated. You have to put some time into each thing. We also allow for the creation of YOUR OWN specialties. If you have an idea for a specialty. Put it in the proper location. There is a template in the Technique section. This has been stated clearly.

But given enough time, one can be walking around "swinging swords and throwing fireballs at equal strength", you'd just have to make them as weak as a bunny fart to start things off. It takes 200 posts to get to a Level 5 technique. I can guarantee that very few new players would be willing to suffer that much just to start getting to the point where they're comfortable with the character they created.

Avarice. wrote:
As for how you "Improve" your skills into a artistan in a profession. This is being worked out, Quests, how many quests you preform. Determine how "good" you are at any given subject. Quests have just been implemented, and this site is still on its baby feet. You're going to have to roll with the punches for a little while until everything is as perfect as it can be. If you 'can't deal with that' then i'm sorry. Not everything in life is going to be handed to you on a silver platter.

This site has been up for about 3/4 of a year, judging from the first posts. It's not 'still on it's baby feet', it's just struggling with it's own mechanics. Also, these metaphors("Roll with the punches, can't have everything handed on a silver platter") are really endearing, but they don't address the exact point I made in my post- You're just being evasive.

Avarice. wrote:
On a side note, I am also displeased with Measure, who is not a staff member, he is a player helper. He has no moderation powers he simply helps people who are new. Read the "Polaris" thread. Explains what exactly Polaris is, not staff. Sometimes people have obligations that puts them out for a few days. Its thanksgiving week. Please. Give the man a break though.

He is a staff member. Look at the side-bar on the left, fourth portrait under "STAFF", power to move threads or not. And it hasn't been Thanksgiving Week today until now. I'd be fine if he was dealing with Thanksgiving business, but I've received no PM or notification.

Avarice. wrote:
Like i said. You have the power to create the story with your Character "Seeth" there is no war currently. You could start one though. I never said you couldn't.


Not enough of Aleha's military forces and groups are explained for me to even begin fathoming trying to build a group based around trying to destroy one of it's factions.

Avarice. wrote:
Your Personality was lacking because you had a single quote. And then separated it into sections Most people only do this section stuff to change the subject. If you wanted to say "This is part of the Personality too" this wouldn't have been a problem at all. Which i clearly said, "Its fine i simply didn't know they were also part of your personality" so please. don't be the 'jerk' here because i already told you the personality was fine.

My personality was not lacking at any time, you simply failed to read a single paragraph further. I can't explain this any more nicely. I'm not a jerk for confronting this site with it's faults, rather than just quitting when I saw these faults and my single thread got held up by a staff member. Avarice, pick your words more carefully.

Avarice. wrote:
Quote :
There was a lack of knowlege of the very rules on the site. Elves get two elements, and if you have a specialty involving a weapon, you get more than one of that weapon(or so I understood from what I read in information threads.) Avarice did not realize this at first.
There was miscommunication between the staff for the time. I don't know every rule by heart. There are a lot. You're going to have to deal with minor setbacks.

Well I'm happy you went back to re-check those rules instead of going with your gut, you could have wasted ten valuable minutes. It wouldn't have been a minor setback if either I didn't go back and check the rules then deliver them to you myself.

Avarice. wrote:
Rules changed. If there was a problem. They were editted. Go look at the rules now, I guarantee you they are different from when you started. I dont know if any of you were here at the time, but at first we had no "level system" for techniques. Everyone had to go back through their profiles and change it to work with the new system. Like i have already said before. Sites on its baby feet, roll with the punches. When you start you are "A weak piece of poop with no understanding of the world" Quote myself. You want to have an arsenal of weapons and be a proficent killer to start? Too bad. sorry, but you can't just have everything at the start. You have to work for your skill. We have to reward people for staying here for so long and give them an incentive to stay for a while. For most people i have to disagree. Most people want something to work for.

I already have a job, what would be the point of having a second one I'm not being paid for? This also limits the character choices available by quite a bit when you'll always start off with absolutely no experience. So much for a grizzled war Veteran.

Avarice. wrote:
Instead of complaining about my lack of knowledge on your character. Perhaps you should have explained that more in depthly. I would have believed you if you said "I won't kill a players character without their consent" etc etc. I have to look out for everyones character not just yours. You aren't the most important person on the site so i'm not going to treat you differently unless you give me a reason to. I treat everyone the same. You're not a god when you start off, no one is. If you don't like not being the most powerful assassin in the world to start. Too bad, this isn't the site for you. This is a site based on the "rewards system" where your rewarded for doing well and are able to change things as you go.

You're putting words in my mouth. I didn't make any statement detailing that I believed myself to be the most important. I had 10 paragraphs detailing history, 9 paragraphs detailing Seeth's personality. If that is not enough detail, I'm unable to pinpoint what reality you subscribe to that allows 19 paragraphs of information to be 'without depth.' And again, don't put any words in my mouth, Avarice, it's very childish.

Avarice. wrote:
I'm not going to delete this thread or ban you. I'm not that type of person. However you could have saved yourself a lot of trouble by simply asking me personally about your problems with your character. We could have 'worked it out.' You don't get to have everything you want in life as you please, period. Face the facts. Your going to have to give up somethings. I'm sorry your character can't be "EXACTLY as you want it. My character isn't "exactly" how i want him either. But i'm working towards making him where i want him to be.

It isn't hard to get approved on this site. We make it so you can be approved. We want you to be approved. But We have to break you down, make you new, change you around to get there.

More opinion than facts here. And the reason this isn't in a PM is because this is much larger than you. I didn't try to 'work this out' because I didn't particularly care what you thought of me, moderator or not, there was nothing to work out. Like I said Avarice, nothing personal, you're just the one who read the app and messed up.

Avarice. wrote:
If you have any more problems. Feel free to PM me. FA has enough on her mind to have to put up with this.

-~Avarice
Game Master

I would certainly hope FA doesn't have 'too much on her mind' to 'put up with this', otherwise I really am just wasting my time. Thanks for adding your opinion to the discussion, Avarice...
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Fαταl Aττrαcτioη ♥
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PostSubject: Re: Feedback   Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:04 pm

Well, I certainly didn't expect to come back to this. Nonetheless, I will try and respond accordingly, to where I feel input is needed. Other than that, I honestly feel most of this has already been addressed. I apologize for inconveniences, but some of this is rather ridiculous, and there's a lot I shouldn't have to point out.

See it as you wish, but I consider this site to still be in the making. I say this because I think this of every site that's actually developing. As when a site grows, it changes, and from experience, we learn things. What I mean is there are still some further systems in development, but I like to ask my members what they think first, before implementing them. They also aren't going to be done in a day, as Avarice and I are both still students in high school, seniors in fact - so we're both busy with more important, real life things. I love this site, but it isn't my life, just an escape from reality, hence why I RP. I didn't create this site to have the most active, or prosperous site, but just as a getaway for any others who might be interested. Guests have the ability to read up about the site, and see the progress in the RP world, and decide whether or not they like it, and want to join for that matter. I'm sure you scanned this site before you thought about joining, so you would have seen all these 'flaws' before creating your Character and RPing here. You are entitled to your opinions, and your feedback is appreciated, but there are several accounts in this topic made by more than one person that certainly needed reworded, as they seem like more than even a complaint, but indeed flaming. I shouldn't have to point out anyone, as the people partaking in this topic are limited to begin with, and if you can't figure it out yourself, well, that's unfortunate for all of us. With that said, I will post my feedback in the following.

Quote :
First thing that actually attracted me to One Sky is that it's a big world and it appeared quite a bit of effort had been put into it. A map, many cities and areas with descriptions to them, and a system with which to reward players for participating in threads. I'm biased in my preferrence to Fantasy settings, but not many people can pull an entire world out of their heads.

However, the site is woefully lacking in lore. There is a single "Story" thread, but no timeline, even a simple one, to line things up and show just how old the world is. Were humans, elves, etc. tossed down on the big chunk of rock by some old gods? Was it many thousands of years of evolution? Did nobody have the inkling of a thought to scratch down their thoughts on cavewalls, parchments, or the like to affirm their existence(make history)? Is there any inkling as to what each race believes? Aren't there different religions and interpretations among them? The story is a skeleton right now, it needs more details to really be able to flex some muscles and HOOK people into wanting to RP on the site.

TL;DR- Site needs more lore and exposition. As it is now, it's a wide-open world, but is lacking the immersion that small details provide.

- As it's already been stated, I left the Story so open purposely, because I wanted the plot to be more player/character driven. And if you haven't noticed, in the Story topic, at the very beginning, it even says 'Prologue', as that's exactly what it is. If you want more detail, when I'm not juggling school work, I would be happy to add to the Story, as there is a lot I would like to add as well. Majority of this pertains to the Gods, the creations of the world, the races, religion, etc. As these are main factors, and they will be added in the Prologue, and Chapters will be further added when I see fit. For now, as inconvenient as it is for members to PM me with all their questions, for us both, that's how gaps in the Story will be answered. And as for continuing plot to advance the Story, the King is a huge factor in this, as he rules the mainland, and the majority race. Unfortunately, our King has been extremely inactive, and I'm honestly trying to find a way to spare altering characters already made, to simply replace him. I will apologize for this, though it is not entirely my fault.

Quote :
Next up are specialties, which have conflicted me quite a bit more than I thought they would. Characters shouldn't be walking gods, whether freshly created or not. A person, no matter how old they get, are defined by what they place their time into. If a person is a blacksmith for 90% of their lives, a tailor for 8%, and a Chef for 2%, then their specialties would simply be Smithing and Tailoring. It becomes a bit harder to tell if it's 33% for each.

However, here's the friction, how long does it take to become an artisan in a given profession? When is it no longer about "What the character is best at" and more about "How long it takes to get good at something", Specialties involving crafts seem a bit pointless, especially for those wanting a character who has a bit of age to them. Even with Specialties like Smithing, it's not as if such a thing would benefit them in combat- which leads me to the next problem.

Some specialties are filler. They hold abilities that aren't exclusive and are easily covered by others. The most important distinction I feel that needs to be made between specialties is Combat and Non-combat. Sure, Joe Metalworker is a bang-up Smith, but that won't make him very good at cracking open some guy's skull with his blacksmith's hammer. So if he's 50 years old, and has had plenty of time to gain some knowledge of Archery and Elemental magic, why is he still restricted from knowing Smithing? Specialties shouldn't target professions if you're look for balance, it just kills creativity. Professions should be based upon the age of character and how it fits into history(someone living in the mountains their entire life typically wouldn't know squat about how to captain a ship). There's still problems in Combat specialties in the form of overlap. The "Art of Stealth" suffers from this the most, and when you get down to it, there's only three ways in which to look at Stealth:

Defensive Stealth- As in utter invisibility, quick running, lightning reflexes, and nimble dodging, agile movement
Offensive Stealth- Blending into crowds or shadows(no complete invisibility, there has to be some weakness to this since it's not defensive), sudden powerful attacks(Assassins, whether with poison, a knife, or a bow, the objective is to kill with precision with minimum collateral, this cannot be done if you allow every victim to get into a 10-minute-long sword fight with you). Knowledge of poisons and traps.
Perception Stealth- Awareness to sight, smell, sound. Knowing is half the battle, and if you don't have the perception to see your target or hear your foes in the darkness, you'll be a pretty lousy thief, rogue, assassin, whatever. Able to spot weaknesses more easily, since they're not likely to carry around big, hulking weapons.

This problem has happened to quite a few sites, and when it comes down to it, whenever you give a character stats, specialities, techniques, abilities- Whatever measuring stick you want to impose- it has to be observed critically. So many sites I see always go for this same formula. "Hi, welcome to the site. Write up a profile and then you can RP. But only after your character's abilities, strengths, and weaknesses are on par to that of a clumsy trainee. But don't worry, if you stick around long enough, you can be a walking god." And this IS the truth if it's allowed for one to purchase an unlimited amount of techniques that deal "Multi-limb-dismemberment-combo-attacks." I won't lie, if I invested that much time into a site, I definitely would think twice about leaving, but as for someone joining and looking at how long it would take for a post count to get that high... it's not very appealing. This is especially considering the limit of one or two threads per character AND how much of a royal pain it can be if said thread gets held up(I'm learning about that right now).

Not to mention, Narrow specialty/Stats systems also impose the same boring triangle, giving you the age old question- "So are you a Warrior, Rogue, or Mage?" Even the "Art of..." section gives credit to this, as all combat techniques are categorized into one thing. Playing the traditional mage, warrior, or rogue is fine but eventually it gets incredibly boring(about after the 50th Legolas passes by). And while all that's fine for some, think on this for a second: I once had a character that was a powerful mage, yet was also good with a sword. His magic would be restricted to absolutely ZERO harmful spells, but all defensive/restoration class abilities. And so if I tried to make that character here, that's one specialty slot down and for only half a spellbook. This site's template doesn't target those types of Offensive/Defensive specifics and/or take them into account.

TL;DR- Some specialties are lackluster due to overlap or generally pale in comparison to others. Some offer no combat benefits but are grouped under combat 'arts'. System really just needs more polish, like so many other stat systems, break out the charts, possible combinations, and start balancing or it's just going to be a pain for newcomers. Deters newbies from sticking with the site and with the current population and objectives in the site(Quests), this is a dire problem.

- The Specialties you have rendered as practically useless in combat are indeed useless in combat, as that's not what they are for. These are a part of the 'Other' Specialties, and are simply posted so that new members are aware that they don't have to make a character for fighting, but a simple civilian who specializes in a trade. Of course, there will be cases with Characters who are for example Blacksmiths, and are amazing with Swords, and maybe even shields. Smithery doesn't have to be considered your Specialty if you choose to make a fighting Character, it can simply be mentions in your history and additional characteristics. I can further clarify this by editing The System, and The Arts & Specialties so that is states this specifically, but I honestly thought it was rather self explanatory, and my description at the beginning of the topic was enough. My apologies for your misunderstanding.

Regarding your opinions on the Art of Stealth, I entirely agree, and have been contemplating ways to make it more fair. Your feedback was very useful in this, and has given me further ideas in how to balance it a bit more. For that, I thank you.

As for your next statement, you do not have to start as a pitiful trainee, as we aren't very strict so that you have a chance to create the Character you want. However, we will not allow someone to make a godly Character. That's why we have Staff to check applications, and approve or deny of them. And there will be cases where the Staff will make mistakes, but we're all Human, no? We all make mistakes, we learn from them, correct our errors, and move on.

I'm not sure where you were going with your next statement, regarding someone who knew both Magic and War, as that is allowed here. It is also stated in The System, that as long as your Equipment matches your Specialties, they are allowed. What this means is if you do for a fact have White Magic and Swordsmanship, you could wear whatever Holy Robe you wanted, carry a 'Spell Book', and have a Sword, or even two, if you specialize in Dual Swordsmanship - all you have to do is state it. More than One Weapon to start is okay, as long as it seems logical considering the Character itself. The Staff is simply the judge of that, asking you to make whatever changes or corrections.

Offensive/Defensive/Evasive or whatever it is, it's the Type of the Technique. Specialties can be used in many different ways, that's why we have Techniques, and their corresponding Templates. For example, someone could carry around a shield, and naturally people think he'll use it for defensive purposes, but he could also surprise you and swing that thing at you like crazy. Again, this is the purpose of Techniques. They exist so we know what a Character is capable of that time, can consider any variations of said Techniques by simply observing the Type and other information, and deem it acceptable or not. Instead of rambling on, I'll continue elsewhere. If you want to go any further with this, be my guest.

Quote :
Now for the more touchy subject: Staff.

http://onesky.heavenforum.org/character-archives-f11/seeth-t303.htm#3831

Tested the waters with this character. I knew the combination of abilities was going to raise some issues, but this was to point out a few faults. Still, I did put quite a bit of effort into this, 4 or 5 pages worth, if only to show I wasn't just pissing about.

I hate to be throwing spotlight on Avarice for this, but he is the one who worked through the application. Reading it from top to bottom, I was disappointed with having no timeline and not having any chance to tie Seeth to anything other than a mercenary organization. This is incredibly bland, as mercenary work would be outside of the story, knocking off bland Mr. Random NPC target since the quests leading up to 'wars' weren't around yet(and there's no reason to suspect they'd be up anytime soon).

Then personality was claimed to be lacking. I was confused, as I'd picked apart and thought up every deranged problem this fool, Seeth, would have. I even went so far as to characterize the manifestations of his dementia. The only explanation would be that Avarice glanced over the profile, saw personality with a one-liner, and replied without actually reading any further. If there is another way this can be missed, I will retract this.

There was a lack of knowlege of the very rules on the site. Elves get two elements, and if you have a specialty involving a weapon, you get more than one of that weapon(or so I understood from what I read in information threads.) Avarice did not realize this at first.

After all of THAT, there was also the issue with the techniques: Windwalk, Shadowstep, and Last Gasp. Admittedly, Last Gasp was the skill that would completely screw up and get a mage killed, and it should be removed. Though I still played by the rules. Seeth was of the Dark element, has access to dark magic, and from what I've seen in techniques, Dark Magic is use to either damage, poison, or debuff(degrade) a target. Seeth was given the "Mageslayer" title for this very skill.

Assassination should have offered something in the way of stealth, but both Windwalk and Shadowstep were flagged. Shadowstep was another one that was a pretty ugly technique, but again, it's what an assassin does. They don't sit around and slowly jaunt towards a target, they play dirty. If a player puts their character in a thread with an assassin that is flagged for some brutal violence, then they've signed their own death warrant unless their character knows what their dealing with. The player has the choice there- Anyways, I don't force someone's character into a corner and slay them without the player's consent, it doesn't promote good roleplay. Both should have been a bit higher in technique level, but my focus was still on Shadowstep, as I personally felt Windwalk to be pretty weak(you can't sneak very well if you've got a breeze following you in any type of indoor complex) and didn't really care for it.

(Avarice, I don't mean to throw you under the bus with this, but in my opinion, this is not how to handle an application.)

So if I was a brand new member and had poured that much time into an application, only to stumble into so many problems(half of them unwarranted or outside of my control), why in the world would I stick around and RP on this site? Mistakes happen, but stuff like this would drive people off, even if they were just peeking through the denied/archived apps.

I won't pretend like I'm speaking from some throne of honesty. I'll admit I'm biased- I like open, fantasy worlds with plenty of freedom and room to dig in and immerse. I hate having my thread sitting on hold for very long without the person in question contacting me(Yes, I'm talking about Measure, another Staff member). I loathe most 'balancing' systems because most of them tend to flail about because, surprisingly, most balance systems are coming from Games like D&D. Those RPGS have a lot of rules and stats in place to keep a character balanced, if you don't go full-fledged with it then it's not going to be balanced, and if you do, then one may as well be playing an online RPG unless they REALLY like writing.

Take this information as you will. I tried to be as forthcoming as I could about it. This site isn't directly tailored for me(and it shouldn't be), BUT even by working by it's own rules, It would be possible for me to cut all but four of Seeth's techniques and have a character who could kill another without breaking a sweat. And this is a starting character(Shadowstep[assassin/dark] 4, Razorwind[swordsman, wind] 4, Lastgasp[assassin/dark] 3, Windwalk[assassin/wind] 3, total of 14 points spent with 4 techniques). So one should either start laying down some serious specialty/magic restrictions or just impose OOC restrictions, a very simple rule: Don't be a jerk and kill a player's character without consent.

I decided to post this in feedback, since that's what it is. Like I said at the beginning of my post, I'm not doing this out of some malicious intent. If I felt I was wasting my time I wouldn't have bothered to take the effort in posting this.

If you feel this post is too flammable(I know it has touchy subjects in it), feel free to delete/ban as you will, I'll get the message.

- I could say so much regarding this application, and the mistakes made by both parties. Instead, I'll restate that we are all Human, and we all make mistakes. I will however, do my best to respond to anything that might not have been clarified by the responses before mine.

Most of your concerns have been answered by Avarice and Rodyn both, so the only thing I feel I need to restate is the Assassination Specialty. Applications I have checked regarding the Assassination Specialty, I have simply asked the member to add an Art of War beside it, to restate how they would Assassinate whoever. In a case regarding even Avarice, he created an Elven Character who had Assassination and Maneuverability as Specialties. The Character carried out his Assassination Techniques with a Bow, so I had him simply restate the Specialty by putting 'Assassination - Ranged'. While I'm going over the Arts & Specialties section, this will certainly be one of the many changes I will need to make, and I will restate it as I just did.

I will also note before I end my response to this particular quote, Characters are not allowed to kill other Characters without the other members' consent, or for reasons stated otherwise. You can find further information on this in the Rules.

I will restate that this site is completely custom, made by myself. The System is not based on stats, and I will admit I'm not a fan of implementing complicated stat systems. I have considered adding stats, but this would take quite awhile, and I don't want to put the site under maintenance for it, because it would disrupt RP, and discourage members from staying or coming back for that matter, in my opinion. Instead of stat systems, I tried to make a simple system that would get the job done, and would be more favorable and simple for the members. That is all.

. . .

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PostSubject: Re: Feedback   Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:47 pm

Quote :
But what about that past I was asking about? Do I make that myself as well? And certainly it couldn't be made into anything I wanted.

You'd have to apply to make certain things for the past. obviously. This is how it works anyway though now isn't it, you can't just presto! Then there was god. No you have to have it all approved.

Quote :
But you are. Go back and read Seeth's thread. The Shadowstep technique, if it were placed at level 4, it would be plausible for such a spell to exist in the world. But the reason it was rejected, not because of it's current level, but because it was simply too strong in it's combination with other spells. Revenants are the same thing as spectres, spirits, really any ghostly apparition- fairly standard for a fantasy setting. And my creative talents didn't count for much when those same revenants weren't allowed for me to control in that single, secluded environment.

Really? Is that what happened. Because what happened was. "I would be happy to control the NPC's" Is what i said, and you said sure. So please don't even go into that shit. 'Cause right now your talkin fool shit.

Quote :
Instead of just telling me the story is fine, and I'm wrong, then address the very points I made in my post.

I already did. Stop Badgering.

Quote :
Not enough of Aleha's military forces and groups are explained for me to even begin fathoming trying to build a group based around trying to destroy one of it's factions.

Ignoring my previous statements. Continue you'll just be more disappointed. Like i've said many times, Its up to you how you want to do things.

Quote :
Personality
What we are, what we think we are, and what we show the world.



"Think of the sensation as reassurance that you are not dead yet. What you are feeling is life in you! I would hate to lessen that for you. I will take you from one extreme to the other, I would never deprive you of this; Your final awareness."

This is what your "PERSONALITY" section Reads. A paragraph further explains something else. Your "Alter-Ego" Which How was i supposed to know that it went with your Personality? did you say it? Then I can't assume anything. So you, choose your words more carefully.

Quote :
I already have a job, what would be the point of having a second one I'm not being paid for? This also limits the character choices available by quite a bit when you'll always start off with absolutely no experience. So much for a grizzled war Veteran.

Correct. You want to be a grizzled war veteran? Work for it. This isn't a "Job" by any means. The only job you seem to have is making big deals about nothing anyone else has a problem with. RPing is writing. If you consider Writing a job, why are you here?

Quote :

You're putting words in my mouth. I didn't make any statement detailing that I believed myself to be the most important. I had 10 paragraphs detailing history, 9 paragraphs detailing Seeth's personality. If that is not enough detail, I'm unable to pinpoint what reality you subscribe to that allows 19 paragraphs of information to be 'without depth.' And again, don't put any words in my mouth, Avarice, it's very childish.

But you did make a statement. By making this topic and complaining. You just did. You had 1 Labeled Paragraph. Thats what you had. 1 Labeled paragraph. The rest were misdemeanors unless properly labeled. Which is what i have been saying from the start.

Quote :
More opinion than facts here. And the reason this isn't in a PM is because this is much larger than you. I didn't try to 'work this out' because I didn't particularly care what you thought of me, moderator or not, there was nothing to work out. Like I said Avarice, nothing personal, you're just the one who read the app and messed up.

Problem is, I didn't mess up. last i checked you don't run the place..





. . .


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PostSubject: Re: Feedback   Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:58 pm

This is getting out of hand, now. The last thing we needed to do was jump Takuma for just stating his opinion of some things he disliked on this site, it's really unnecessary. Takuma, I think you could bring a lot to this place, so I wouldn't advise you to just quit because something wasn't working out with your other character, or one person wasn't RPing enough in one thread.

Give this place another chance, with a different mindset than what you're used to. I think you'll find One Sky has a lot to offer to us.
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PostSubject: Re: Feedback   Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:06 pm

This is definitely getting out of hand. Find a way to discuss this without insulting another, or I will have to lock this topic. I don't care who said what, this needs to settle down. Enough said.

. . .

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PostSubject: Re: Feedback   Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:31 am

Fαταl Aττrαcτioη ♥ wrote:
This is definitely getting out of hand. Find a way to discuss this without insulting another, or I will have to lock this topic. I don't care who said what, this needs to settle down. Enough said.

I won't be discussing this anymore, as I don't know how I could put things anymore politely without just being a sap. I spoke my opinion and have received nothing but dismissive comments under the flimsy guise as a plausible counter-argument. Apologies, FA.

Rodyn wrote:
This is getting out of hand, now. The last thing we needed to do was jump Takuma for just stating his opinion of some things he disliked on this site, it's really unnecessary. Takuma, I think you could bring a lot to this place, so I wouldn't advise you to just quit because something wasn't working out with your other character, or one person wasn't RPing enough in one thread.

Give this place another chance, with a different mindset than what you're used to. I think you'll find One Sky has a lot to offer to us.

Avarice and FA both spoke their opinion, and probably said more than they thought they did. I'll check on the site from time to time, but for now, this place is just leaving a bad taste in my mouth and I'll have to find some other way to unwind after work.

Later Rodyn.
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PostSubject: Re: Feedback   Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:35 pm

I wasn't looking for an argument, I don't like arguing. I was simply answering concerns, responding to suggestions, taking responsibility for my faults, and informing you of what is and isn't in the making. I cannot take responsibility for how you decided to interpret my message, as that's your own doing and thoughts, so I will not apologize. I'd say I hope to see you around, but that's entirely up to you, not me. I am done responding to this topic.

. . .

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